Reviewing the Rise & Fall of Mars Hill with Aimee Byrd and Dr. Michael Bird (Podcast)

December 8, 2021 Posted by John Anthony Dunne Christian Culture 4 Comments

In this episode we debrief our experiences listening to Christianity Today’s podcast series, The Rise & Fall of Mars Hill, which is all about Mark Driscoll’s leadership at a megachurch in Seattle from 1996 to 2014. Joining us for this conversation are Aimee Byrd, the author of Recovering from Biblical Manhood and Womanhood (published by Zondervan), and Dr. Michael Bird, who is Academic Dean and Lecturer in Theology at Ridley College, Melbourne. You can find the two of them chatting on together on their podcast and YouTube series, “Birds of a Feather.” Over the course of the conversation we express our appreciations, discomforts, and main take aways from the lessons of Mars Hill. Team members on the episode from The Two Cities include: Dr. John Anthony Dunne, Brandon Hurlbert, Stephanie Kate Judd, Dr. Chris Porter, and Dr. Logan Williams.

Sources referenced in the episode:

Jessica Johnson, Biblical Porn: Affect, Labor, and Pastor Mark Driscoll’s Evangelical Empire (Duke University Press, 2018), which is based on Johnson’s own ethnographic research at Mars Hill from 2006–2008. Cf. also her article in Religion Dispatches on October 1st reviewing the podcast series: https://religiondispatches.org/sharing-many-of-the-same-flaws-as-its-subject-the-rise-and-fall-of-mars-hill-podcast-puts-blame-anywhere-but-where-it-belongs/

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Photo credits: Seattle Skyline is a painting by Bri Buckley which was uploaded on May 15th, 2018: https://fineartamerica.com/featured/2-seattle-skyline-bleu-bri.html

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About John Anthony Dunne

John holds a PhD from the University of St Andrews, where he studied under Professor N. T. Wright. He currently serves as Associate Professor of New Testament and the Director of the Doctor of Ministry program at Bethel Seminary (St. Paul, MN).

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Allan Baird
· Reply

December 13, 2021 at 8:02 AM

Thought you may be interested in this post from Dr Ian Paul:
https://www.psephizo.com/life-ministry/how-should-evangelicals-respond-to-the-abuse-of-power/
Thanks,
Allan
- Sarah O'Connor
  · Reply
  
  December 17, 2021 at 1:15 PM
  
  Thanks for the tip, Allan. That was interesting and helpful.
Sarah O'Connor
· Reply

December 13, 2021 at 12:33 PM

This was a great discussion. I would say that I think Aimee’s question about what these pastors are being taught in seminary is a valid one, though I would extend that to all the major church-planting networks like the ARC and Acts29. My experience on the board of a very successful church plant (from day one and for 7 years) that was backed with tens of thousands of dollars from one of these organizations is that there was insufficient training in at least three arenas: 1) the ethical handling of finances; 2) how to set up a system of governance with true accountability vs. quasi oversight; and 3) the essential equality of women (leaving aside whether women can be pastors or not).

I was shocked to learn that our pastor believed his authority over extra-budgetary funds extended to allotting church money to himself for marital counseling, childcare, and vacation, with no board oversight, that he believed the board had no right to either set or know his salary or other benefits, and that he alone had authority to set and know all staff salaries. I was also shocked to see how he set himself up as the only link between our two accountability bodies – the local board of elders and an outside oversight group – so that he could say “the overseers agree to this” or “the elders think that” in order to steamroll his plans and hide the finances, and how he reserved to himself the right to unilaterally (without discussion or explanation) “fire” members of the volunteer elder board. I was also shocked to learn firsthand, from a pastor I dearly loved, that the fact that I was a woman made it unacceptable for me to question the ethics of these practices yet at the same time made it acceptable for him to publicly humiliate me for doing so.

What if we pressed these seminaries and independent church-planting organizations to work their future pastors through the ECFA’s seven standards of financial accountability or call in someone like Paul Tripp to teach on how to set up your governance to avoid becoming the next big church scandal? Or how about some training for the board on how to spot abusive and domineering leadership and what to do about it?

What I’m trying to say is simply that, in spite of whatever character issues may reside in individuals, more can be done on a systemic level.

Once again, well done on the podcast.
Stephanie Kate Judd
· Reply

December 22, 2021 at 1:32 AM

Hi Sarah,

Thanks so much for taking the time to write.

Firstly, I am so sorry to hear about your experiences. I’m rarely surprised these days, but I still feel the weight of it.

Secondly, yes. I agree with you that there are systemic and structural measures that can and should be implemented by church and para-church organisations.

I am a lawyer at a firm that specialises in charities and not-for-profits exclusively. We deal with these corporate governance issues, including issues of leadership failure, regularly – and across all sorts of denominational and non-denominatiomal contexts, in my country (Australia) and abroad. I have been trying to write an article addressing the kinds of issues you’ve articulated but have unfortunately been a bit too caught up! Your comment has been another reminder that it would really help.

The first thing that strikes me in reading your (horrific!) account of financial mismanagement is that this raises the question of how religious entities are regulated in the US. In Australia, whilst there are some religious entities that are exempt from the normal reporting requirements (https://www.acnc.gov.au/manage-my-charity-type/basic-religious-charities), most church and para-church organisations must comply with the Australian Charity and Not-for-profits Commission’s governance standards (https://www.acnc.gov.au/for-charities/manage-your-charity/governance-hub/governance-standards). The sense of accountability to members that this cultivates can’t be underestimated.

Secondly, yes – governance training should be a basic part of any board / committee’s obligations. Issues like the ones you’ve raised happen usually in the following circumstances: when there are insufficient non-executive board members (meaning that people who are employees and subordinates of the Lead Pastor are required to govern their boss, which is messy and difficult to do); when board members aren’t trained in basic financial literacy, such that they can’t read or interpret a basic P&L spreadsheet so things are missed; when there are no conflict policies in place, or these are not enforced (such that improper expenditure of funds becomes a frequent and unregulated occurrence); when boards haven’t implemented an expenditure threshold policy, such that any proposed expenditures over a certain amount must be approved by the board; when the Pastor is a sole signatory to the church bank accounts… he really shouldn’t have his hands in the till, that should be diversified out to a Treasurer/Secretary/two board members; I could go on…

I’m sorry, Sarah. It’s very disillusioning.

In Australia there are financial management and corporate governance courses that board members / employees can take, and we often recommend this to our clients. It’s empowering and encourages better practice and better cultures. I will look into this with respect to the US jurisdiction and see if my networks can make any suggestions.

I commisserate with you on the seminary front. Unfortunately, too many theological training colleges are willfully blind to their responsibility in training up leaders who are able to navigate this aspect to their future roles. Some will do post-ordination training annually, but in my view this needs to be captured before they are unleashed on a congregation.

Feel free to contact me directly on Twitter or Facebook if you would like to discuss this further.

God bless you richly, Sarah.

Steph

Reviewing the Rise & Fall of Mars Hill with Aimee Byrd and Dr. Michael Bird (Podcast)

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